Thoughts on 5.1.2 – Introduction to Turned Twill

Forums Weaving Discussion Online Guild Discussion Season 5 – Laces Thoughts on 5.1.2 – Introduction to Turned Twill

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    • #193122
      Ginette
      Keymaster

        Let us know your thoughts on 5.1.2 – Introduction to Turned Twill

        1
      • #193244
        cshortcake
        Participant

          I noticed that floating selvages were not mentioned.  Don’t you need them for twills?

           

          9
        • #193252
          barbel1234
          Participant

            I just watched the new Episode.

            My next plans were for tablecloth and I think this is just perfect.

            I also have lots of colours in 22/2 cottolin and the size of yarn will allow me to substitute  Jane’s 8/2 cotton in the same way.

            please correct me if I’m wrong.

            Thank you for helping me to keep the spirits up!

            6
          • #193264
            mclay
            Participant

              At time stamp 9:51, Jane says, “I do all my drawdowns as sinking sheds because it is way easier.” She then proceeds to do the tie-up box on the drawdown on the board. However, the end result of the tie-up box, at time stamp 12:27, looks the same as what is described as a rising shed tie-up on the worksheet (p. 2).

              What am I missing? Can you help clear up my confusion?

              Thanks in advance!

              Marjorie

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              • #193270
                Sandra
                Keymaster

                  Good morning, Marjorie.  If you look at your handout for this episode – Jane has noted at the top of each tie-up page that she has used a rising shed for all her tie-up drafts.  On the main draft page – she has included Rising Shed right under the notation on the right of the – The Base Tie-up.

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              • #193265
                Jane
                Keymaster

                  I did not use floating selvedges 🙂

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                • #193273
                  mclay
                  Participant

                    But my point is that the tie-down she drew on the board (which she referred to as a sinking shed tie-down) is the same as the one on the worksheet (which is labelled a rising shed tie-down). It can’t be both. So is it a sinking shed tie-down (as the video suggests) or a rising shed tie-down (which the worksheet states)?

                    thanks for responding so quickly!

                    Marjorie

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                    • #193296
                      Jane
                      Keymaster

                        Hi Marjorie, I replied to the thread not to you…sorry, my answer is below.

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                    • #193292
                      Jane
                      Keymaster

                        Hi There…..I did the draw down on the blackboard as a sinking shed just because it is so easy to do drawdowns for sinking shed.  The draft uses the same tie-up but the blocks will be in different positions.  The A on the black board might be warp faced ….in the actual towel it will be weft faced.  So you can use the same tie-up for a sinking shed loom or a rising shed loom and the only thing that will happen is your blocks will change places.

                        If you plan to do this project on a rising shaft loom….just follow the drafts given for rising shed.  I wove the project  with that tie-up on my Spring which is a counter-marche loom.  I tied the numbers to the bottom lamms and the white boxes to the upper lamms.   If you did it on the sinking shed loom…you have two options…..leave the tie-up the same and the top cloth will be on the bottom and vice versa….or tie-up the white boxes and it will be exactly the same.

                        Hope this makes sense.

                         

                        • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Jane.
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                      • #193293
                        kristina
                        Participant

                          I have an 8-shaft countermarch loom so is this chapter not applicable to me?

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                        • #193295
                          Jane
                          Keymaster

                            Hi Kristina,

                            I wove the entire set of towels on a counter-march loom.  Please read the post above and you will know what to do.

                             

                            1
                          • #193317
                            Joy Sceviour
                            Participant

                              Jane —
                              My 8-shaft Leclerc Voyaguer is a 24″ table loom. I’m worried about the width of the towels. Can I delete a narrow segment of threading in the warp to more comfortably accommodate the towel project?

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                            • #193319
                              Jane
                              Keymaster

                                Hi Joy, You can do whatever you want.  The large green section could be made narrower…. or you could take out a few repeats out of all the stripes.  You would be reducing by increments of 4 in any colour….I wouldn’t reduce the white stripe because it is so narrow already.

                                You feel free to adjust your patterns any way you like.

                                2
                              • #193360
                                Lindsay Robb
                                Participant

                                  Jane, I’ve been singing your praises and advertising this season online.  I’m so grateful you covered turned twill!  This is my favourite towel weave and you’ve opened my eyes to different tie-ups and possibilities!

                                  But… you disappointed me a bit today!  Please do not join the growing list of experts telling new weavers that they can’t have more than four shafts on a counterbalance loom.  At minute 9.28 in the very first video you say that we “can’t do this [turned twill] on a counterbalance loom anyway” 🙁  I’m not sure if that was just a mistake because later you keep referring to sinking shed looms.

                                  I just took these towels off my new-to-me Woolhouse Jenny loom.  She’s an 8-shaft counterbalance – sold that way from John at Woolhouse and he made them for over 10 years.  This was my first tie-up and warp on her and it was easy-peasey with huge sheds, much larger than my Leclerc jack loom. She’s quickly becoming my favourite loom and has inspired me to add four more shafts to my Cherryville too.  In fact, I’ve spoken to quite a few people now overseas who also have 8-shaft counterbalance looms and tell me they used to be very common in Europe, although many people are going to countermarche with more shafts instead.  Someone on Facebook tried to tell me they were extremely rare in North America but maybe I just attract these things because I’ve already seen two for sale in my short 18 months weaving career LOL

                                  I love your videos and tell people to join your guild all the time because I think it’s the best online learning out there!  This is just a little reminder to watch what you say because newbies remember this stuff and I’d hate for another 8-shaft counterbalance loom owner to skip turned twill and miss out on all this joy because of an off-hand comment.

                                  20210120_201057

                                  • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Lindsay Robb.
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                                  • #193384
                                    Jane
                                    Keymaster

                                      Hi Lindsay,

                                      Thank you so much for bringing that to my attention.  I have honestly never  heard of or seen an 8 shaft counter-balanced loom.  I love counter-balanced looms and use mine all the time but it is only 4 shaft.  I guess my knowledge around them has only been in North America and the sinking shed 8 shaft I refer to is the David which is a Louet loom with 8 shafts that has a sinking shed but it doesn’t work on a counter-balanced system.  We have finished filming up to Episode 5 so I can’t address this to our members until Episode 6, but I promise I will address it then to let others with your loom or other European 8 shaft counter-balances know this.  Well, actually I can address it in our next OLG newsletter.  My apologies and my thanks go out to you for sharing your knowledge.

                                      So sincerely,

                                      Jane

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                                    • #193385
                                      Jane
                                      Keymaster

                                        And P.S. your towels are amazing and here is another example of…..’there is always so much more to learn’ :).     May the learning never end.  It makes me smile.

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                                    • #193376
                                      Marcella Harrison
                                      Participant

                                        I have taken so many classes but could never fully understand turned twill til I viewed this video.  Thank you so much for making it so much easier to understand.  I have been a “student” of yours since the beginning and I have enjoyed each and every lecture.  Thank you so much.  I always look forward to a new class.

                                        6
                                      • #193397
                                        mclay
                                        Participant

                                          Thank you! That does make sense! I was just confused because the tie-ups were the same: I didn’t really examine the drawdown!

                                          Marjorie

                                           

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                                        • #193467
                                          Clare
                                          Participant

                                            Wow, that was mind-bending! Your draft is beautiful. I watched the whole thing through last night so eagerly! I have been playing with turned twill on multiple blocks and my drafting has been very hit or miss.  Thanks, Jane,  for that comprehensive lesson, I’m gonna need to watch it a few times!!! I’m guessing that what you are calling “framers” might be referred to as background?

                                            BTW, at the end of the “On the Loom” section there is a tie-up that requires 12 treadles and if you’re like me you might have only 10. If you google “Tim’s Treadle Reducer” you will find an algorithm written by Tim McLarnan at Earlham College that calculates how to do it on 10. You have to weave one block on a skeleton tie-up (5-8 on two feet). You can draft it in Fiberworks by selecting “allow multiple treadle action” under “Treadling”.

                                            I used this and added a “C” block (the blue blocks inside the orange stripe) to a practice piece that I have been working on until Jane’s draft arrived. Can’t wait to get started on yours!!!

                                            IMG_0382

                                             

                                            JST tie-up

                                            • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Clare.
                                            • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Clare.
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                                            • #193473
                                              Jane
                                              Keymaster

                                                Hi Klare, By framers I mean they are a set of 4 treadles that are tied up to weave both blocks weft faced and they would be weaving against a set of 4 treadles that are tied up to weave A block weft faced and B block warp faced which would allow you to frame your B block with weft faced all around it.

                                                I am so lucky to have the loom with 12 treadles and I just wanted to show the full tie up, but I did not use all of them in any of the towels that I presented….all towels just used 2 of the 3 possible tie-ups so that everyone could do them easily.  Your suggestion will be very helpful for weavers who don’t have 12.   Thank you.

                                                2
                                            • #193511
                                              Lindsay Robb
                                              Participant

                                                You are the best, Jane!  And thank you for the compliment on my towels 🙂

                                                I was so worried you would be angry at me or I’d misunderstood. I always had the impression that you were a counterbalance-lover!  I started on a jack loom (with your tuition!) but have fallen in love with CB. I’ve also heard Tom Knisely say that counterbalance looms are limited and even the Leclerc website says that too, so you aren’t alone. If you are interested, there are horse tie-ups and comments in The Big Book of Weaving and also a good Glimakra pdf from their website.  Apparently six shafts is more common in Sweden and once you get to 8 or 10 then drall pulleys or countermarche are now the go-to.  This is also a great blog and this lady sent me an unpublished pdf on using 8-shaft pulleys that got me started.  https://www.bergdalaspinnhus.com/artiklar/cb-looms2-e.html

                                                I’m super excited to try the alternate turned twill tie-ups and I really wish I had tied onto that last warp now instead of pulling it out!  I’m also going to do your weft-faced sampler once my yarn order arrives 🙂

                                                Here’s a photo of my Woolhouse Jenny – I’m on the lookout for another because who ever heard of a folding portable 27″ counterbalance 8-shaft floor loom!

                                                20201223_212611  134514058_130153488832221_8716937781564396935_n

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                                              • #193533
                                                Jane
                                                Keymaster

                                                  Hey there Lindsay,

                                                  How could I be angry…heck, I don’t know everything and I’m the first to admit it.  We’re all in this together like Red Green would say.   You are correct, I do love counter-balance looms which is why I did one of the samples in the double weave episode on one.  Just to demonstrate that unbalanced sheds are possible on CB looms.

                                                  Your little Woolhouse is fabulous.  John Low is amazing.

                                                  Thanks for sharing that link, it will help other CB loom owners see the possibilities 🙂

                                                  Ginette is going to put a tag on the video to make the correction.

                                                  Have a great weekend,

                                                  xo

                                                  Jane

                                                  3
                                                • #193795
                                                  Charlene
                                                  Participant

                                                    Just looking at the instructions and info on page 6 for Towel #2. I think that the bracket is in the wrong position at the end. Would have you doing two repeats of white on x adjacent. Easy to see when you look at towel on video.

                                                    LOVE, LOVE, Love all of this.

                                                    1
                                                    • #193980
                                                      Jane
                                                      Keymaster

                                                        Hi Charlene,

                                                        I’ve just checked the pattern against towel # 2 and you are correct.

                                                        The bracket needs to end with a square of pale limette (so there is only 4 lines in that bracket)

                                                        We’ll change the pattern and thank you so much.   I proof read that darn thing about 20 times but there always seems to be one mistake that my wonderful participants catch.  High five 🙂

                                                         

                                                        🙂 Jane

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Jane.
                                                        • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Jane.
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                                                    • #193834
                                                      Sandra
                                                      Keymaster

                                                        Thank you for your eagle eyes, Charlene. I’ve passed your observation onto to Jane. Once she has had a chance to look at it – probably tomorrow, we’ll get back to you. 🙏

                                                        0
                                                      • #193949
                                                        Clare
                                                        Participant

                                                          Thanks Jane, for getting back to me. It is all starting to make sense. I’m sure it will be all the more clear when I sit down at the loom! ❤️

                                                          0
                                                        • #194199
                                                          Inga
                                                          Participant

                                                            How about this loom from Turkey – 24 shafts!

                                                            24 shaft

                                                            5
                                                          • #194367
                                                            Carmen Kight
                                                            Participant

                                                              I wrote a note while watching that says floating selvedges are not needed because in 8 shaft twills every few picks is caught at the selvedge. Oh, I see this was already answered now.

                                                              • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Carmen Kight.
                                                              • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Carmen Kight.
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                                                            • #194370
                                                              Carmen Kight
                                                              Participant

                                                                Lindsay, it’s amazing that you brought this up, because, as I have only 4 shafts, counterbalance as of now, and I read the post at your link last week. Where she said  “To use the dräll pulleys as they are meant to, no horses are used – in this meaning, it is a purer counterbalance action than is the usual 4-shaft configuration.
                                                                But: that also means restrictions – the two connected shafts (always two, one from the front, one from the back) must work on opposites: what goes down on one end, must come up on the other.” Is she talking about the stall pulleys as opposed to other pulleys? I thought that what I quoted from her (sorry, don’t remember her name) meant 3/1 and 1/3 needed to be countermarch for 8 shaft weaving? I have done balanced counterbalanced weaves on 4 shafts, and it worked fine. Do you know if there are there any things you can’t weave with 8 counterbalanced shafts that you could weave with a countermarch? thanks, Carmen

                                                                • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Carmen Kight.
                                                                • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Carmen Kight.
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                                                              • #194371
                                                                Carmen Kight
                                                                Participant

                                                                  I learned so much, same with the shadow weave meets twill episode last year. Thank you for the way you teach this, it comes together in a good way for me. I am inspired now to get 8 shafts for the first time in my life, and look forward to weaving turned twill. I hope there will be more 8 shaft episodes sometimes. If I had known about the parallel countermarch Louet Spring in 2016 I would have bought one, and I tell people how great I think it it is based on Jane’s video, but so far I don’t know anyone looking for a countermarch. I can’t buy one at this stage because I have 3 looms and even though 2 of them cost me an initial $100, I don’t want to add a fourth loom because I might be facing divorce lol.  So I’m getting a vertical countermarch to put on my counterbalance loom. When I researched 8 shaft counterbalance just last week I thought it was doable but more limited. I posted a reply to Lindsay about that here too. Another great episode!

                                                                  • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Carmen Kight.
                                                                  • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Carmen Kight.
                                                                  • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Carmen Kight.
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                                                                • #194557
                                                                  Elizabeth Arthur
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    Looking at instructions for towel #5 compared to the photos, it appears from the video that the repeats which say all broken treadling may not mean the 44 picks of Gold Y are broken? In the video, it looks like the 44 picks match the end of the towel and the framers are all broken?

                                                                    1
                                                                    • #194572
                                                                      Jane
                                                                      Keymaster

                                                                        Hi Elizabeth,

                                                                        I just checked the towel and everything was broken treadling until the end when I did the 10″ of Gold X in straight treadling.  The last 12 picks of red framers were straight treadling as well.  Here is a close up, sorry about the shadow.  The 44 picks of gold were X.  The picture was taken showing the 10″ of straight at the top….with all the broken sequences below.  Hope this helps….and let me know if it doesn’t make sense.

                                                                        IMG_2112

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                                                                    • #194568
                                                                      dianeg537
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        Hi Jane,

                                                                        I just finished putting your boucle towel kit on my loom – 9 yards.  Can I use some of this multicolor warp in the turned twill episode for a couple of the drafts, esp since I don’t need to use a floating selvedge.  I can still put it on my 8 shaft baby wolf using a straight draw, can’t I?

                                                                        Thanks,

                                                                        Diane

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                                                                        • #194575
                                                                          Jane
                                                                          Keymaster

                                                                            Hi Diane, You sure can weave that warp in turned twill but you will need to thread it in blocks if you want to see the turned twill effect.  You could thread one colour A block 1,2,3,4 and the next colour B block 5,6,7,8.  Then play with a few of those tie-ups from the episode 🙂

                                                                            Let us know how it turns out.

                                                                             

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                                                                        • #194578
                                                                          Elizabeth Arthur
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            Thank you! The photo really helped.

                                                                            Liz

                                                                            1
                                                                          • #196008
                                                                            Marty Wink
                                                                            Participant

                                                                              Hi ladies!

                                                                              I would love to put turned twill and these various tie ups into a tablecloth.  Is this possible to do in double Weave?  What’s the minimum number of shafts and treadles that it would take?

                                                                              Thanks for your hard work and dedication!!

                                                                              Marty

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                                                                            • #196014
                                                                              Jane
                                                                              Keymaster

                                                                                It would take 16 shafts and 24 treadles to do all the variations, but of course you don’t need them all at once.

                                                                                 

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                                                                              • #196705
                                                                                wbcostume8
                                                                                Participant

                                                                                  Thank you Jane and team!
                                                                                  Another mind blowing episode. So clearly explained, and yes a lot to take in, but I feel that I can do it. A wonderful learning project.
                                                                                  Also I noticed that Jane’s hems look so smooth and neat. I usually machine mine, but they don’t look as good. Are these hand hemmed or is there a better way way to do it?
                                                                                  Cheers
                                                                                  Wendy

                                                                                  1
                                                                                  • #196720
                                                                                    Jane
                                                                                    Keymaster

                                                                                      Hi Wendy,

                                                                                      So glad you enjoyed that episode :). I hand hemmed those towels because I had the time but I just finished a run of 8 for the Bronson Lace episode that is coming up later in the year.  Sometimes I hand hem and sometimes use the machine…depending on how I’m feeling at the time.  The last episode in Season 1 is about hemming…I demonstrate how I do both.  Hope it will help you.  I don’t have a fancy machine, it is as old as me. I pin the heck out of the towel and have my stitch length longer than average length so it doesn’t bunch up the bottom because I don’t have a bottom feed foot like newer machines.

                                                                                      2
                                                                                  • #199318
                                                                                    Danette Cross
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      Jane, during the table time, I would have loved to see the other side of the towels.  Hope to do a coverlet in turned twill from a profile draft. I know, I know, just reverse it in your head!  But I think some of your colors in reverse must look pretty cool.

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                                                                                    • #199319
                                                                                      Jane
                                                                                      Keymaster

                                                                                        What a great idea Danette….I can never really imagine it….you turn it over and go WOW…would you look at that.  When I have some extra time…which may be in April :)………I will take a picture of both sides and get Ginette to place them side by side as a little photo essay.  We’ll put them up here.

                                                                                        P.S.  Ginette….remind me if I forget 🙂

                                                                                        What would we do without Ginette and Sandra!

                                                                                         

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                                                                                      • #199321
                                                                                        Ginette
                                                                                        Keymaster

                                                                                          Will do Jane!

                                                                                          In the meantime, here are the 12 towels. I don’t believe we posted them on the forum yet. The PDF only has one of the photos as it would have made the download a bit large.

                                                                                          Turned Twill-1Turned Twill-2Turned Twill-3Turned Twill-5

                                                                                           

                                                                                           

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                                                                                        • #199327
                                                                                          joan horwich
                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                            Hi, I don’t know if anyone else caught this, but when I looked at the kit for this episode, the instructions indicate that you need a 12 dent reed for these towels.  On the handouts it indicates that a 10 dent reed should be used

                                                                                            Thanks. Joan

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