Thoughts on 2.2 – Dressing Your Loom Back to Front – Warping a Counter-balanced Loom, short silk warp

Forums Weaving Discussion Online Guild Discussion Season 1 – Foundation Thoughts on 2.2 – Dressing Your Loom Back to Front – Warping a Counter-balanced Loom, short silk warp

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    • #157582
      Ginette
      Keymaster

        Let us know your thoughts on 2.2 – Dressing Your Loom Back to Front – Warping a Counter-balanced Loom, short silk warp.

      • #157583
        Patricia
        Participant

          Jane,

          Would you place the raddle and lease sticks differently if you were beaming onto a sectional warp beam?

          • #157584
            Jane
            Keymaster

              Hi Patricia
              I have only warped a sectional beam using a tension box in which case you don’t need either raddle or lease sticks. Well, not the way I did it anyway….I’m not a expert on sectional warping….it has been a long time :). I used to beam in one inch sections. The tension box worked like the lease sticks and raddle. I would tape the ends of each bout with masking tape before I cut them from the tension box and then I would tape them to the beam. Once it was all on I would bring up each taped bout. Because they were only an inch worth of threads I could thread them without getting them messed up. Hope this helps, Cheers,
              Jane

          • #157585
            zwartezwaluw
            Participant

              Hi Jane,

              Do you have any tips or ideas about warping rigid heddles? I am a poor student and it’s what I have. Do I just go about it the same way or is it smarter to use a direct warping method with rigid heddles?

              Thank you!

              Zee

              • #157586
                Sandra
                Keymaster

                  Hi Zee! I’m wondering if the best place to put your question would be on the Online Guild Forum. I think more rigid heddle weavers might see your question there and hopefully be able to help you.

              • #157587
                Lee
                Participant

                  I have an older 1943 leclerc nilus mira loom. To balance the harnesses it causes the rods above the harnesses to be uneven with each other. But when I level the roller bars above the harnesses so they are parellell the harnesses aren’t level. What am I doing wrong?

                  • #157588
                    Ginette
                    Keymaster

                      Hi scottleesheep, How are the cords that are wrapped around the rods, are they all the same length? Also, are the rollers adjustable on your loom? I know that in the later years, they put brackets on the inside of the castle pieces so that the rollers can be adjusted, not sure if yours has any. Also, if when you adjust the harnesses, do you get a good shed? If so, I would just adjust the harnesses and not worry about the rollers.

                  • #157589
                    kristin_crane
                    Participant

                      I’ve been weaving for years, and am still learning so much from these season 1 videos! Would you have a recommendation on where to put the raddle on a Macomber loom? I have always put it on the back beam, but it’s so interesting to see the raddles on the harnesses, on the opposite side of the lease sticks from where I’m used to. Thank you, so I glad I joined your guild, I’m feeling so inspired to get a warp wound.

                      • #157590
                        Ginette
                        Keymaster

                          Hi Kristin, you could clamp it right on top of the castle. When I’m using much thicker yarns on my David loom and need to use my 1/2 inch spaced raddle, I clamp it on the castle. I do have to use longer Irwin Quick Grip clamps to make it fit but it works great.

                      • #157591
                        hhgcindy
                        Participant

                          I’ve been weaving for a few years but still consider myself a novice. I cannot believe how much easier you make warping than the way I learned it. I have a 22″ Norwood so I’m going to have to do some mods to put the raddle on the shafts (no castle and the shafts have a little play in them) but I will figure out how to make it work because this just makes so much more sense. Thank you.

                        • #157592
                          Emma Hamilton
                          Participant

                            I have an obscure old loom made in New Zealand, no longer manufactured, called a Loman floor loom ; 4 shaft. I’m pretty sure the previous owner (deceased so I can’t ask her) must have warped front-to-back as it didn’t come with a raddle despite many other accessories. I’m thinking she must have tied the lease sticks to the breast beam and sleyed, threaded then beamed that way. I’m going to try your way once I get myself some handy dandy quick grips and a raddle, but question: do lease sticks have to be flat? Because mine are round dowels….

                            • #157594
                              Sandra
                              Keymaster

                                Round dowels will work, Emma. The main thing is to have something that keeps your threading in order. Have fun with your “new to you” loom!

                            • #157593
                              Emma Hamilton
                              Participant

                                Do you count how many threads in each group when doing the lashing?

                                • #157595
                                  Sandra
                                  Keymaster

                                    I don’t Emma. Just make sure you secure it somewhat evenly as you lash.

                                • #157596
                                  Mary Williams
                                  Participant

                                    Which size of seine twine do you use for lashing on. I believe you said ‘somewhere’ in one of the videos, and silly me didn’t write it down thinking I’d remember, but I’ve looked and looked and looked again through the videos and can’t find those minutes. Help!

                                    • #157597
                                      Ginette
                                      Keymaster

                                        Hi Mary, you can use any type of seine twine, as long as it’s strong and smooth. You can use the #12 for sure.

                                    • #157598
                                      Selma Bair
                                      Participant

                                        I am part of a group that meet to watch the videos together. A question came up and I am writing to ask…
                                        Why take the break off while winding the warp on? No one had seen this done before.

                                        Thanks for your time,
                                        Selma

                                        • #157599
                                          Sandra
                                          Keymaster

                                            You loosen up the brake or allow it to roll in the opposite direction so you can wind your warp on your warp beam. That way it can easily wind up from the back of your warp beam, over the warp beam and through your heddles, etc.

                                        • #157600
                                          Melinda Downie
                                          Participant

                                            Pausing the video to say: Cutting the roll of paper with the bread knife is freaking GENIUS!! Thank you! I’m so enjoying learning from you, Jane (and Charlotte!). Okay, back to watching you warp!

                                          • #157601
                                            Sandra Easthope
                                            Participant

                                              If you go to Ikea in the childrens dept. they have rolls of paper that fit the table looms and its thick enough for pulling to tightening.

                                            • #157602
                                              Lorraine Bissell
                                              Participant

                                                I can’t be the only student to appreciate the ‘Fanny Brice’ on the front of the loom??!! Oh, and the info on winding on the warp is wonderful too. Husband was impressed by the Irwin clamp use. So guess I’ll be getting those soon!

                                              • #159430
                                                Stephanie Thomas
                                                Participant

                                                  Hi Jane,

                                                  Joining your guild was the best thing that I have done for myself in a while. Your sense of humor and being pretty much down to earth is refreshing. I have just purchased my Jane Table Loom – 70 and I am anxiously awaiting its arrival. I was hoping that I would find an episode that has you working on a Jane Loom. Is there one? Also, would you tell me the size of the warping rod (metal rod is what I am looking for) you use? Thank you. You and Charlotte are wonderful and most fun to watch!

                                                  Stephanie Thomas

                                                  • #159433
                                                    Sandra
                                                    Keymaster

                                                      I’m excited for you, Stephanie!  You can find a lot of information on the Jane loom in the Shop part of the JST website.  Find your loom and then scroll down the page to find more information.  Click the tabs on the side to discover even more!  This should keep you happily reading for a bit while you wait.  😉

                                                  • #159438
                                                    Stephanie Thomas
                                                    Participant

                                                      Thank you for the information. Also, what is the circumference of the warping rod (metal dowel?) Do you happen to know? 1/4 inch? That seems like it would bow. I should be more clear. I want to use the metal warping rod on my Baby Wolf and was wondering what size would fit into the holes in the Texsolv string.

                                                      Stephanie Thomas

                                                      • #159441
                                                        Sandra
                                                        Keymaster

                                                          Lashing on is the answer 😀  Jane demonstrates this in Season 1: Episode 2.1.  Your rod won’t bow because lashing prevents that happening, no matter what loom you are using.

                                                        • #159451
                                                          Ginette
                                                          Keymaster

                                                            Hi Stephanie, just to add to Sandra’s comment, the rods are 1/2 inch stainless steel metal. I can’t check my loom at the moment to verify that the rod would fit through the texsolv holes as I just wound my David loom and can’t seem to reach the rod under the separator paper… but on the video, Jane’s rod does. I tie my rod a little different, I have 2 little ties, one on each side that I slide the rod through and the warp rod (stick) together.

                                                        • #161024
                                                          Alicia
                                                          Participant

                                                            Hi:  I am a very new weaver.  I have only woven once on a little direct tie up loom. I recently purchased an old Peyton counterbalance loom which my experienced friend assures me is in good working order, and it seems she is correct.  I am making myself a raddle to fit the loom, and I’m very glad I watched your video before I hammered in all the nails!  I really like the idea of clamping the raddle to the harnesses rather than the back beam, which was my initial plan.  There isn’t much clearance between the lower rollers and the top of the harness however.  What do you think of the idea of clamping the raddle to the rollers rather than the top of the harnesses? My raddle will by wide enough to straddle both of the bars.   It looks to my inexperienced eye that it would work just fine.  Thanks so much for your very informative videos!  I|only joined yesterday and already I have learned so much!

                                                            • #161025
                                                              Sandra
                                                              Keymaster

                                                                Hi Alicia, welcome aboard!  You are thinking of securing your raddle to the rollers with clamps – one at each end?  You will end up creating a lot of movement through the raddle as you wind your warp through it onto the back beam.  You wouldn’t want your raddle to roll off!  Is there a shelf or flat spot above the top roller, have you tried to see if the raddle would sit there.  The higher it is, the easier it is to spread your warp through it – easier on your back 😉  It looks like you have a beautiful loom.

                                                            • #161027
                                                              Alicia
                                                              Participant

                                                                Thank you Sandra!  I was just coming up from looking at it, and I totally agree.  There would be too much movement.  There is no shelf above or attached to the the top roller.  I think I will either put up with the inconveniently low clearance above the harnesses, or put the raddle on the back beam.  The back beam might actually be easier. At least I will be able to sit down part of the time.

                                                                About the loom:  It appears from the little bit of internet research that I have done that x frame counterbalance looms were made by a number of small workshops in Oregon and Washington State from the 1940s on.  Arthur Allen looms seem to be the most common. The name has worn off of mine, but I’ve identified it by looking at a couple of labelled examples online.  It is quite pretty!

                                                                Thank you very much for your advice.  Much appreciated.

                                                                • This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Alicia.
                                                              • #161240
                                                                Cathy Meyer
                                                                Participant

                                                                  I have a Gilmore loom which does not have a castle.  I have been attaching  the raddle to the back beam, which creates a stressful and tedious job to get threads into place.  Would it be possible to attach the raddle to the top of harnesses? Would it be best to have just one harness in place or attach it with clamps to more than one harness?  My loom holds 8, but I am still only using 4.  I’d love to make this part of the process easier.  Thank you for your input, Cathy

                                                                  • #161256
                                                                    Ginette
                                                                    Keymaster

                                                                      Hi Kathy,

                                                                      I would attach the raddle to the top of the harnesses and if your clamps are big enough, try attaching to all 8. I do this on my AVL loom as it’s the only place I can put the raddle, mind you, I am using some larger clamps I found in our garage. I have done where I used smaller clamps and attached them to only 4 of the harnesses but the harnesses on my loom can move for me to do that. Your Gilmore is a jack loom, so attaching on less than 8 might be tricky. Let us know how you make out 🙂

                                                                  • #163403
                                                                    Jane Howe
                                                                    Participant

                                                                      Hi Jane, I am really enjoying my subscription.   I’ve been weaving for awhile on a lovely old 27 inch leclerc, counter balance  loom. I really like  the suggestion of clamping the reed on the harnesses, mostly because I hate bending way over into the loom to take the threads in order off the lease sticks and into the raddle where leclerc suggests it should go. It is really hard on the back. I also hate spreading out on the back apron (the way I was taught) and will try lashing on with seine twine as you’ve suggested.  Two questions though about clamping on to the harnesses.   Can you use the same method for a wider project than your scarf example (for example a tea towel) and if so how do you work around the counter balance cords attacking the harnesses to the top of the loom?   I hope that’s a clear question!   Also, what size Irwin quick clamps would you use for this purpose.  Thanks again for such great material.

                                                                      • #163411
                                                                        Sandra
                                                                        Keymaster

                                                                          Hi Jane, how much distance do you have between the cords on your harnesses?  You could make a raddle that would fit perfectly between them, the way that Jane demonstrates.  Have you watched the episode on counter-balance looms in Season 1?  You will see there than Jane weaves ALL her fabulous mohair blankies on that loom – so you can weave as wide as the reed you have for your loom!  As to the size of Irwin Quick Grips – it depends on the size of the item that you want to clamp 😉  Hope this helps – if not, ask away!

                                                                      • #163404
                                                                        Jane Howe
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          Oops forget to mention, I have a four shaft loom

                                                                        • #163409
                                                                          Paris Graham
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            Soooo glad I finally pulled the trigger and signed up for the online guild!

                                                                            I have a 200 year old barn loom and so I’m not sure where to put the raddle if not in the beater. I have around 4 feet of space from the harnesses to the warp beam, there is no back beam either. I could suspend something from the upper horizontal beams, that way I could adjust how close to hang the raddle from the warp beam…. other than that I’m not sure what to do. Any ideas? barnloom

                                                                            • #163412
                                                                              Sandra
                                                                              Keymaster

                                                                                I’ve got to ask ……… can you get inside the loom for threading and setting up the raddle?  Can you slip the beater off while you are threading the loom – it looks incredibly heavy!  It’s a stunning loom you have acquired and looks like it has tons of history that it can share with you!

                                                                            • #163419
                                                                              Paris Graham
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                Yes, you can easily set a chair in there to thread the heddles. The beater can be moved forward and backward a bit and it *can* come apart completely but I never do that as it’s pegged together.

                                                                                Thank you, I’m privileged to be part of this loom’s history, it has taught me a lot already.

                                                                                • #163422
                                                                                  Sandra
                                                                                  Keymaster

                                                                                    Great!  Maybe you could attach a raddle to a shaft with Jane’s pet Irwin Quick Grips?    You could get inside your loom and space your warp across your raddle from there.  Did you dress the loom – the warp on the loom – btf or ftb?

                                                                                • #163450
                                                                                  Paris Graham
                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                    I have dressed it only a few times and it was front to back, as I was taught. Each time it has been a tangled up mess and took FOREVER to dress. Jane’s lessons about warping have been a real eye-opener for me and I can’t wait to try her method. I will look for the Quick grips and give those a try. Thank you!

                                                                                  • #163451
                                                                                    Jane Howe
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      Hi Sandra, thanks for your response.  There’s about 18 inches between the harness cords so making a raddle and rolling on the way Jane suggests would work well for narrower projects, but not tea towels, I fear.   Just thought I might have missed a work around.   Back to the raddle in the front process, though I think I will get rid of the apron ties and lash on the way Jane demonstrates,   Even more nerve wracking for me is spreading out the warp on the back Rod with all those threads looped over my arm!   Yikes!   The Irwin grips are fantastic.   Where have they been all my life?  I measured my raddle and the four wooden harness (about 4 inches across) so 6 inch grips would probably be fine,

                                                                                    • #165624
                                                                                      Kellie Stapleton
                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                        Hi Jane. I have a Leclerc Voyageur 24″ table loom with the new swinging beater. This means there’s no way to use the raddle (where Leclerc recommends) unless you thread the raddle like the reed. This has been confirmed by Leclerc, so I’ve returned the raddle and invested in the Ashford kit. They recommend it on the back beam, which it fits nicely on the Leclerc. Where would you recommend the raddle on my loom if not on the back beam? The top of the castle has the levers so that’s out.

                                                                                      • #165628
                                                                                        Sandra
                                                                                        Keymaster

                                                                                          Hi Kellie, can you see any way you could secure it on your shafts with the handy dandy Irwin Quick Grips?

                                                                                        • #165641
                                                                                          Kellie Stapleton
                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                            8 shaft frames; they’re all metal, which means they are flexible. I wouldn’t want to bend them. I could use maybe just 2 of them but I’m not sure if I could get the handy-dandy vice grip in there. Also maybe not sturdy enough. I only have one grip right now, which means a run to the hardware store.

                                                                                          • #166227
                                                                                            Kellie Stapleton
                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                              I’ve received the Ashford raddle but it’s too wide to fit under the castle and attach to the shafts. The castle has the levers on top but if I pull them down the raddle could fit on top. It’s not totally level and the threads would be moving over the levers as I beamed on. I could put a piece of paper over the levers; thread moving over the paper. So the raddle wouldn’t be level and where the thread moved wouldn’t be level. Is it worth it?

                                                                                              Any other possible places?

                                                                                              Thanks

                                                                                               

                                                                                              • #166232
                                                                                                Sandra
                                                                                                Keymaster

                                                                                                  It sounds like exactly what I do on my table loom, Kellie!  It works for me 😉  Is there a way you could make it level?  Depending on how unlevel it actually is, will determine whether your tension is even going onto the warp beam.

                                                                                              • #166496
                                                                                                Kellie Stapleton
                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                  I can get the raddle on top of the castle but slightly less sturdy as the below photos, where the raddle is behind and attached to the castle. The threads would pass through the heddle frames. Which do you think is better, on top or behind the castle?

                                                                                                  IMG_5166

                                                                                                  IMG_5165

                                                                                                • #166510
                                                                                                  Kellie Stapleton
                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                    New weaver here. I’m trying to figure out how wide to spread the warp on the raddle. I thought the project was 10″ wide but maybe I didn’t hear right. It’s hard to hear Jane, is she saying the project is 20″ or 10″ wide? Or is she talking about epi? She says the nails are on the half inch so if it’s 20 epi, I could see 10 threads in each space? Is that correct? Do you count the space or the nail in the raddle? And what if your raddle is in cm? Or the spacing of the nails is different than 2 spaces/in?

                                                                                                    • #168049
                                                                                                      Sandra
                                                                                                      Keymaster

                                                                                                        Hi Kellie, I just noticed your message – sorry I missed it.  The width you spread in your raddle depends on your project.  The yarn Jane was putting on her loom looks very different from yours.  The weight of your yarn determines the ends per inch and therefore the number of ends in your project.  It looks like fairly large yarn on your loom, therefore, your ends per inch would be much less than what Jane is using for a silk project.  For instance, if Jane is using 20/2 silk, it would be sett at 20 epi.  If you are using heavier wool yarn, you might sett it at 8 epi.   For instance, if Jane had 10″ project, her warp would have 200 ends (20 epi x 10″).  If you were winding a 10″ project, and your yarn was 8 epi – you would have 80 ends in your warp.  It’s quite a difference.  So, for your 10″ warp, you would put 4 ends in each of the spaces on your raddle if your spaces are 1/2″ wide.  Jane explains all this as you move through the lessons in Season 1.

                                                                                                    • #168045
                                                                                                      Amy Greenberg
                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                        This was so very helpful.  Question — I do not have rolls of paper, but I do have warping sticks.  I realize that for a very long warp, the sticks wouldn’t work well, but for a shorter warp, how do I space the sticks in the roll?  Do they touch each other, or do you just need a couple for each twist of the roller?

                                                                                                        Thanks so much!!  Amy

                                                                                                        • #168050
                                                                                                          Sandra
                                                                                                          Keymaster

                                                                                                            I’ve never used warping sticks, but if I did, I wouldn’t pack them onto the beam, I’d probably put them on every couple of inches, Amy.  You want to make sure your layers of warp can’t get too close together as you wind on.  That’s why I love paper 😉

                                                                                                        • #172691
                                                                                                          Trish
                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                            Can someone tell me which episode – and about at what point in the video – Jane shows how she chains the warp – I made a few bouts and they will not unchain!  so I have to slowly take them all apart and do them properly.  They look the same as Jane’s but obviously I’ve done something wrong…usually I use ties.

                                                                                                            thanks

                                                                                                            • #172693
                                                                                                              Sandra
                                                                                                              Keymaster

                                                                                                                You may have started your chain from the cross end – the best way to find the location for chaining your warp would be in the index for Season 1 or by using the beta search below.

                                                                                                                Online Guild Index (beta version)

                                                                                                            • #172963
                                                                                                              Mary Sturdevant
                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                I have a Gilmakra Juliet Countermarch Loom. I thought I have figured out how to warp using the videos. I clamped the raddle on top of the heddles and started placing the warp threads on it. But when I got to the cords hanging down (that hold the lams) I had planned to just flip the warp onto the other side of the cords. Didn’t work! So, today I just unhooked the cords. There has to be an easier way because they are the devil to tie back up. This is only my second warp. I am a beginner. Would appreciate any guidance. Jane makes it looks so effortless!

                                                                                                              • #183624
                                                                                                                Danielle Perreault
                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                  I like the book stuff for the tension. Thanks

                                                                                                                • #187895
                                                                                                                  Lies Nederbragt
                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                    In the introduction of this episode Jane writes that tension issues in the warp are easy to manage.
                                                                                                                    I made a warp on a warpingbord, and apparently increased the tension. So one end is tighter than the other end. The pegs did not bow, the are glued, it was just me.

                                                                                                                    Can you explain how to manage this?

                                                                                                                    • #187915
                                                                                                                      Sandra
                                                                                                                      Keymaster

                                                                                                                        Lies, it just practice, practice and more practice.  Pay attention to what you’ve done with this warp and be aware of it the next time.  You WILL get there.  Think of it like riding a bike – you fall in the beginning but soon you learn what you need to do to stay on the bike 😉

                                                                                                                        • #187916
                                                                                                                          Lies Nederbragt
                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                            Ha, as a genuine Dutch girl I am good at riding a bike :), so there is hope.

                                                                                                                            My question also refers to how can I correct the difference in tension while beaming the warp. Do you have advise on that?

                                                                                                                            • #187917
                                                                                                                              Sandra
                                                                                                                              Keymaster

                                                                                                                                Just be aware of how much tension you are putting on the warp as you turn the “corner” on the board!  The same way a pedestrian needs to be aware when moving out to cross a bike lane – particularly in Amsterdam 😉

                                                                                                                        • #187928
                                                                                                                          Lies Nederbragt
                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                            Sandra, I am sorry, my question was not clear. It is not easy to expres myself in English language.
                                                                                                                            What I am wondering is how to get my uneven-tension-warp right on the loom. Do you have tips on that?

                                                                                                                          • #187957
                                                                                                                            Sandra
                                                                                                                            Keymaster

                                                                                                                              OK – true confessions time 😉 My loom is in a very small space and, over the years, I’ve wound the warp on the way Jane demonstrates in her original Louet YouTube video.  That way, if my tension isn’t perfect on my warp for some reason, I can deal with it from the front before I wind it on.  Hope this helps until you have mastered winding a warp that is perfect!

                                                                                                                              • #187967
                                                                                                                                Lies Nederbragt
                                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                                  Yes, that will help! Thank you.
                                                                                                                                  I love this course, it is so interesting and informative. And fun. This week my Jane loom has arrived, so I can start weaving.

                                                                                                                              • #192136
                                                                                                                                Kimi Tuxford
                                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                                  For anyone with a mighty wolf, where do you tie your lease stick (no space between the shafts and the castle)?

                                                                                                                                • #208801
                                                                                                                                  linda pelech
                                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                                    could you use landscape fabric to wind your warp on instead of paper? or is the idea for the threads to slide easily on the paper? I just thought it might be easier with the thin fabric and its fairly cheap .

                                                                                                                                    • #208806
                                                                                                                                      Sandra
                                                                                                                                      Keymaster

                                                                                                                                        The paper prevents the layers of warp from sinking into each other.  Fabric wouldn’t offer that protection, IMHO 😏

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