Season 3: Episode 2 – Cramming and Denting

[Sandra]

More adventures with our reeds!

[Michelle]

In this episode Jane talked about reducing the ends at the selvedge. So do we only have 22 ends at the edges? 2 per dent at the selvedge  and then 4 per dent?

Thank you

[Sandra]

You’ve got it!  Jane probably warped with 4 threads in her hand which meant she needed to remove two.

[Jacqueline]

I know with silk Jane recommends warping with minimum 2 threads in hand, is this true for the 40/2 linen as well? Would it be fine with just single thread in hand?

[Ginette]

Hi Jacqueline,

Warping with one linen thread is fine especially if you only have one cone of one colour to work with.

Ginette

[Giny]

Would it be possible to weave with linnen on the Megado or Octado loom.

I do have a David also, so no problem, just thinking if it would be possible.

[Karen]

Is Jane recommending that we do not weave with linen if we only have access to a jack loom? She says she only uses countermarch or counter balance looms for weaving linen.

[Sandra]

Hi Karen, I think what Jane’s is saying (if I can put words in her mouth) is that she has never woven linen on a Jack loom herself.  If you have access to a bit of linen, why don’t you put on a sample on your loom to see how you manage.

 

 

[Karen]

Jane said that when people have problems with linen, it may be that they are using a jack loom. Don’t think I want to intentionally warp a loom with a project that is likely to have issues. I’ll research some more before I invest in linen.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by Karen.

[Jane]

Hi Kids,

I hope I haven’t caused any anxiety about using linen….I really want you to try using linen….so many weavers are scared of  it, and there is a lot of hesitation around this fibre.

What I know for sure is this:

Looms that have an equal tension on both parts of the warp weave linen beautifully.

Many Jack looms do have a dip with the warp coming lower from the back beam into the heddles and then up again to the cloth beam (that is a great thing)…that is the equalizer for the warp so that the bottom part of the warp is dipping to counter the other part of the warp moving up….BUt, not all looms are created the same.

You have to know your loom.

There are so many different looms out there and I only know the ones I use.

Any counter-balance loom has both parts of the warp in action as do counter-marche looms.

The only Jack looms I have are Schacht and they have that beautiful dip which I’ve talked about in other episodes.

The Louet David loom is a sinking Jack but if you look at the warp it comes out of the reed at the top therefore when you step on a treadle those threads moving down have an equal tension to those that are up.

The same thing is happening on the Megado and Octado because while the harnesses just rise, the entire back beam of the loom rises up to create a counter-marche shed.

Don’t be afraid, make a small warp and try it out…you have nothing to loose just so much to gain when you are learning about a new yarn and you are learning about your equipment.

What would be awful is you not trying this magnificent yarn.  Be adventurous and give it a whirl…you will most likely discover that you love love love linen.

Jane

[Karen]

Thank you, Jane! One of my looms does have the dip in the warp that you referred to. I will fearlessly give linen a go!

[Jae]

I have a friend who owns a Baby Wolf and has woven with linen a lot using this loom.  I asked her for tips.  She said the best advice she could give was to not crank the tension on the warp.  Make it just tight enough to have a clean shed, but don’t try to make it trampoline tight.  Given that she rarely has issues, I’m going to go on faith that I can use my jack loom to make this sample, too.

[Sharon]

I have only watched the first video, so I hope my question is not answered in later videos.

I have been working on samples…trying to get the colour, weave structure and sett I am looking for jacket yardage.

Jane cut the first bit off and then worked the density in areas with cramming and denting.  This made the new fabric wider than original.

That means that the warp tied on the back rod the warp is spread out for the original narrow.  When the second wider fabric is being woven is there any concerns about the discrepancy of the width at the weaving and the back beam?

[Sandra]

Not a problem, Sharon.  It spreads it’s width between the back beam and the heddles and you are all “sett” to try a new sample 😉

[Annette Beasley]

Pondering my plan for this sample, came across some 20/2 silk in my stash, just wondering if that would work okay as weft with the 40/2 linen?

• This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by Annette Beasley.

[mqx]

Loved doing this one used variegated brown tencel..

[Nina Kennedy]

I just made the warp for this project and started to dress my loom and realized that I am not sure how to spread the warp in the raddle! I understand that the warp is sleyed through the reed with different denting in each section but I don’t understand how to spread it out in the raddle to wind on.  I apologize if this topic was covered in the videos for this episode but I did not see it.

[Sandra]

Nina, just spread your warp in your raddle as you normally would for winding on.  You will space your warp for cramming and denting when you start slewing your reed.

[Nina Kennedy]

Thank you. I thought I should spread the warp out in the raddle normally – just wasn’t sure how many ends to put in each 1/2 ” space in my raddle. So I divided the ends (280) by 13 (the stated width of the warp) and came up with 21.5 ends per inch which gave me a little over 10 ends per 1/2″ in my raddle so I put 10 ends in each 1/2 inch space. Seems to have worked out ok! (I am using a regular raddle on an Oxaback Lilla loom).

[Sandra]

Great, Nina.  Glad it worked out and looking forward to seeing the result!

[kathleen ready]

After shoveling snow I came in to start my weaving, after 1 hour I got up and well lets just say I couldn’t straighten myself upright.

I am trying to use fibres that I have in my stash, so I used 2/20 cotton from Lunatic Fringe. I also had some boucle that I placed on each side of the cram cotton. I suspect it will shrink more and hopefully give me a scalloped edge in the weft.

[Ginette]

Oh wow Kathleen, can’t wait to see if finished and see how the boucle acts. Lovely colours!

[kathleen ready]

Done! and happy with results, a small amount of collapse present. Used 2/20 and 2/16 cotton and epi 40 and 15.

[Jacqueline]

Really enjoyed this episode.  I used 2/16 cotton for both warp and weft in two shades of blue from my stash.  I will look out for linen that Jane uses, but I couldn’t easily source it in the UK.  Since taking this photograph, I have twisted the fringe which gives it a much nicer finish.  Woven on my Louet David 2 and I didn’t have any tension issues as I only warped enough for a sample and the scarf.  

[Jacqueline]

Your blue scarf is beautiful Jacqueline.

[Charlene]

A bit behind – just did a warp for Episode 1 Season 3  and wove that with 2/16.  Then thought I would resley and try the crammed and dented and thought I would try the second re sley – If you follow denting as written it turns out to be 5 1/3 inches.  If you change the 2 to a dent to 1 to a dent to get to ep1 12 – you have 9″ in the reed.   Is that correct?

[Judy]

I have a question about finishing the linen projects.  I haven’t started weaving it yet (work commitments) but I was wondering if finishing the linen was any different from finishing cotton?

[Michelle]

I absolutely loved working with the linen! The sheen and the texture just made me so happy as I was weaving. I used linen weft for two of the scarves and one shorter sample piece and silk weft in old man’s beard for the other scarf. 

[Nina Kennedy]

Am weaving along doing the cramming and denting linen project and loving the linen. The only problem I am having is that the open sections of the warp have become loose (as Jane said they would) so I weighted the open warps with a rod and fishing weights (as per her instructions in the video). However it is not helping. The warp is still quite loose in the open parts even though I added more weights. It is becoming seriously distorted. I am wondering if this is because I had to use a wooden dowel instead of a steel rod as I do not have an extra steel rod for my loom. Do you think this is why the loose warps are not behaving? Where does one get an extra steel rod anyway?

 

[Jacqueline]

Hi Nina, I noticed the steel rods at the local hardware store. I am in Canada and I was at a Home Hardware. They had them in different lengths/thicknesses. Not sure if this will solve the problem but a steel rod would be heavier than a similarly wooden dowel. I am not quite at that point yet in my weaving. Hope that helps.

[Nina Kennedy]

 

Thank you for the idea about checking the hardware store for steel rods – for some reason it didn’t occur to me that these would be in hardware stores! I’ll have to check my local store.

[taty.lauwers]

Hi! can anyone pls explain the second table & last column of Season-3-Episode-2-Redenting-sample-1-1.pdf
I can understand the first one: weave 2 inches with 24 ppi, then supersquish for 1/2 inch etc
The second table I cannot understand “28 2 1/8ish”
thanks

screen copy to refresh memories:

[Ginette]

Hi Taty,

You’ll be weaving 28 picks and aim for about 2 1/8″ in total.

Ginette

[taty.lauwers]

thanks Ginette, but then why not write the usual “11 ppi” or “13 ppi”? anything special there?

[taty.lauwers]

Hi all
and thanks Jane for a very nice video.
I have done a very small first sample for cramming and denting. First pictures and first question below.
Warp mohair handspun singles yarn is 15wpi (6t/cm).
I sleyed  in my one and only 10dent reed (standard with Louet Jane in Belgium):
* 20 epi (8f/cm) i.e. 2 per dent for my 0,8 inch  (2cm) crammed areas.
* 7 epi, i.e. 1011 in same reed for the open area, width : 0,8 inch  (2cm)
* and 5 epi for the very open area, width : 0,8 inch  (2cm)

This makes for a very narrow warp that is 0,8″ crammed – 0,8″ open – 0,8″ crammed – 0,8″ very open – 0,8″ crammed. I did not reduce to half density at outer selvedges since it is a sample (Jane’s advice for nice selvedges in the video). I washed the sample and agitated them as usual (let’s say : « half fulling »)

I have used the same mohair as weft :
* 18 pp i for medium areas (I could not make it 20 ppi with beater)
* 7-8 ppi for open areas
* 5 ppi for very open areas
Warp is my standard rosepath one (I attach new stuff to the old one). I have used mainly 1234 but I tried some plain weave too. I did not aim for squares.

I made a picture with strong contrast for you to see better (mohair is washed, half fulled, not brushed yet, not pressed) :

and

I like the overall effect of a pseudo lace, I like the texture of “stitches”, but even the very open area on the right has mish-mashed with crammed area : we cannot see a clear definition as in your scarves. Whereas such a very open one I expected to show up contrast with crammed area.

Since it is wool, I can understand I think how it moves. I will have to resley the rest of the warp with 20 epi for all crammed areas and 5 epi for open areas. (I still have 4″ of warp free). I am thinking of leaving one or two free dents between each transition, i.e. between crammed and open areas, so that I can get a clear definition.

Have you any other idea ? Thanks
Or maybe I was totally absent minded and did not follow the instructions. Can happen!

• This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by taty.lauwers.

[Ginette]

Hi Taty,

I like your idea of adding empty dents between the crammed & opened areas and changing your setts. That might just help to define each section a bit more.  The rosepath pattern is really beautiful in your samples and how it gives texture! Did you get a chance to give it a gentle brushing?

[taty.lauwers]

Hi,
re my first sample below (mohair single, msg 23 Feb), I resleyed the remaining short warp as follows, the warp and weft still being 15wpi (6w/cm for us European weavers):
* +-1.4inch or 3.5 cm at 15 epi (6 e/cm)
* 2 empty dents
* +- 1.6 inch or 4 cm at 5epi (2 e/cm)
* 2 empty dents
* +- 1.2 inch or 3 cm at 15 epi
* +- 0.7 inch or 1.8 cm empty dents
* +- 0.8 inch or 2 cm at 15 epi
and wove plain weave, with a narrow band that I wove empty (? English? ) at 2/3rds.

Result is, unwashed:

and washed:

The narrow empty band disappeared, with mohair traveling after washing. No graphic interest.
The contrast between vertical dense areas and very open areas is clear and nice.
The empty area on right side is too small to show anything.
Drape is better than last one.

Progressing! I think I get the gist of it. Thanks

• This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by taty.lauwers.

[Ruth Johnson]

I am happy to report I successfully managed to weave with linen on my 1974 leclerc jack loom!! It was a bit tricky and after breaking 4 different warp threads through my trial and errors I would offer the following suggestions to anyone else: don’t torque down your warp but rather keep it on the loose side. This requires a little more attention when throwing the shuttle but its easier than fixing a broken thread! Also be very careful not to “misthrow” the shuttle as the jamming can cause breaking. I also cut off and retied my warp between each piece. It just worked better than weighting with a rod. The end product was well worth it!

[Sandra]

Great news, Ruth and great advice from your learned and shared experience!

[mary.dean]

Hi all!  I see that one person above has had success weaving with linen on a jack loom.  I remember from one of the season one videos that linen weaves better on a countermarch loom.  Has anyone else been successful using a jack loom with linen?  Any other tips?  I have read that some people dampen the warp.

I wish I had known this before I purchased my loom!  I am a bit nervous to try this.

[Sandra]

Hi Mary – I just entered “linen on a Jack loom” into the Forum’s Search function and several comments and discussions came up.  Also, another useful tool that Jane has provided for us is the Helpline.  You can find it from the main page going through the Information tab.  Jane’s comment about linen and Jack looms can also be found there.  Don’t worry, you’ll have years of pleasure with your new loom!

[taty.lauwers]

Hi! How about the Jane loom from Louet for this exercise with linen (the only one I use)? I cannot remember Jane mentioning it in the video. Thanks.

[Ginette]

Hi Taty,

Don’t see why not. Under episode 3.2.1, in the comments, Sue mentions that she wove this linen sample on the Jane loom and the ‘linen behaved like a dream’.

Give it a go!

[taty.lauwers]

thanks Ginette, I must apologize: I watch this forum as well as the ravelry one and never thought of viewing the contents below each video. Sorry sorry sorry.

[Ginette]

No worries Taty!

[Michelle]

I decided to put a second warp on my loom based on the crammed and dented. This time I used a variety of fibres some recycled denim lace weight, 8/2 tencel, mohair/silk, 8/2 cotton, and zephyr wool/silk blend. I did a fairly random warping and sleyed the edges and white threads crammed. I had other areas sleyed at 18 and 16 epi and the center sections at 12 epi (mohair was one per dent). I wove with a variety of fibres emptying bobbins that I had laying around. Loved this project and the drape of the fabric. Thanks for the inspiration.

[lindajsoranno]

Hi All,

I am so enjoying Jane’s online courses. Here are my cramming and denting experiments on the loom. The first is Jane’s cashmere for warp and yak/silk as weft. The second is the flip.

[dlgorham]

3.11.2019 greetings,

I so admire the work of my fellow participants.  it’s just beautiful!  thank you for sharing.  Jane, thank you for teaching cramming and denting.  I had no idea these techniques existed.  I’m enjoying expanding my horizons through taking your class.

re:  use of linen on a Jack loom.  I’ve had a lifelong love affair w/linen so love learning more about how to weave with it.  I have Schacht looms and have woven w/linen several times without breaking any threads.  I haven’t dampened the linen, I just watch it pretty carefully trying to catch knots or anything else that might hang it up.  on this piece I did advance the warp quite hard and I did beat quite hard as well.  nothing went wrong other than slight slippage in tension on back beam.

On this ‘cramming and denting’ piece I used 20/2 linen for warp and 20/1 linen for weft.  I used fewer colors but am happy with the results.  colors are natural, pink and chartreuse for warp and dark pink and chartreuse for weft.  I intend to use this piece as a runner for the sideboard in our dining room.

[the1to1]

dlgorham ~ Your scarf looks so Springy—lovely color choices!!  I totally agree with expanding my horizons. I’ve said this before, I am so thankful that Jane started this online guild, as a new weaver I am learning so many techniques. Who knew you could cram or dent in weaving!?

I posted this on Ravelry but wanted to share it here too. It is 8/2 cotton  (dark purple, purple & natural). I think it would be amazing in silk but my weaving stash is mostly 8/2 cotton.

[Sandra]

It’s beautiful, Carla!

[Sue]

Hi Ginette

Is there any special knack with linen warp and weft tassels? The open areas look really thin and weedy when twisted.  Just a knot at the top would give them a bit more body?

[Ginette]

Hi Sue,

Your hem will stay in place even without that extra knot but it all comes down to how you like the look of it. You could definitely do an extra knot at the top of the fringes where you hem is and see if you prefer that.

 

[taty.lauwers]

Love all projects, too. Very inspiring. Here is my go at the cram/dent in 4 gradating colors

Details for potential other French readers are on my post: Ajourer et densifier, projet 97 – coton

It is washed and pressed/ironed, fringes are not ready yet. warp and weft on 16/2 alias 2/16 cotton. 300 ends in a 4d/cm (10d/inch) reed, 50epi in crammed chain areas (as much as I can in crammed weft areas i. e. 20-22 ppi), 13 epi in open areas (8 or 12 ppi in weft)

I did not follow any specific grid. Did it free style.

How come I cannot get to very very tight in weft, as I see it in other projects? I tried even kind of throwing the reed… I use a Louet Jane.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by taty.lauwers.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by taty.lauwers.

[Carrie]

I love seeing everyone’s beautiful projects!  Thanks for sharing.  Here are mine:

The first one is the cotton from the Denting warp, then the linen done in pattern and finally the linen with 30/2 silk in Old Man’s Beard.  My favourite is the linen/silk scarf!

 

[Annette Beasley]

My crammed and dented scarf…40/2 linen warp, 30/2 silk weft.  Idea provoking technique for sure.

 

[Jacqueline]

Beautiful soft colours Annette. Just lovely.

[Annette Beasley]

Thank you, Jacqueline!

[Donna]

You all are so inspirational for me.  Decided to take the plunge a little mohair and some cramming and denting.  

[Janet]

Gorgeous! Did you use the mohair for warp too?

[Donna]

Hey there, not sure if you are asking me, but yes, mohair for the warp and weft in the dented sections.  Not really crammed either just a yarn that was about twice epi as the mohair.

 

[lesliemartens2]

Donna,  I just love your colours and the look of the fabric!

• This reply was modified 4 years ago by lesliemartens2. Reason: it wasn’t attached to the pic I was commenting on

[Donna]

You all are so inspirational for me.  Decided to take the plunge a little mohair and some cramming and denting.  

[Janet]

So, the upshot is this is going absolutely fine.  I’m using my Schacht Standard loom and the weaving is a dream.    I warped in my “comfort zone” as Tom Knisely says -front to back.  I kept tension on while warping and it went very smoothly. 1 thread broke (I’d say that’s not unusual for such fine thread) – but, all in all, is working great. The weft is 30/2 silk – I’ll try linen on the 2nd piece just for kicks. Best selvedges I’ve ever had!  Oh – also an end feed shuttle.

[Sasha Adams]

I took this workshop from Jane a few years ago and when I saw the ‘denting’ and ‘cramming and denting’ samples I thought, huh, I don’t think we did those! But I got out my notebook from the class and there they were. But what I really want to say is making your own warp is such a mind blower, and so necessary. I just finished tying on a c/d warp in 2/16 cotton and made plenty of mistakes. There are several ‘orphan’ threads hanging off the back of my David, but NOW I get it. However, I’m just glad that my first c/d warp was cotton and not linen…Thank you Jane!!! This Guild is a true learning experience and I’m so thankful and grateful to you for sharing. 💞

[Jae]

It took me a while, but my cramming and denting scarves are finally off the loom!  I did one in all linen (Powder Blue, Indigo, and Denim) and one with 30/2 silk (Denim, Salt Spring Sky) for the weft.  I really enjoyed this warp!!

[Ginette]

So beautiful Jae!

[Geraldine]

Strangely my cramming and denting also has yarn hanging off the back in three places!! At least I did too many rather than too few but really, I’m a retired teacher you would think I could count.:)

[Maureen Janda]

I’m finally getting to this episode after finishing a baby blanket and coordinating pillow cover, and a couple of batches of towels.  I have some Webs Valley Yarns 40/2 linen in my stash that I’m planning to use, but I’m wondering how different it is from Jane‘s linen. This is very wiry feeling,  but maybe Jane’s is, too. I know I’ve heard that people sometimes weave linen wet. Has anyone used this brand?

[lesliemartens2]

I combined the Parrot exercise in colour and division of space with cramming and denting and made this wrap – 2/8 cotton, 400 threads, 32epi, 16epi and 8 epi.  I loved the experience of “banging” in the crammed threads and delicately placing the open ones.  However, it would have been helpful to have seen Jane hemstitch her project  at the beginning.  Thank goodness I sampled, because when I did, I just hemstitched 4 threads at a time as normal, but it distorted my open sections.  When I did the project below I was much more careful to hemstitch evenly spacing the threads.  It was very tricky to map out my crammed and dented sections to follow the existing warp pattern but well worth it as otherwise I believe the pattern and the structure would have been competing for attention.

[Nancy Hedberg]

Jane, I have to get this off my chest.  About six months ago I decided I wanted to explore cramming and spacing threads in the reed, and to find as much as possible in the literature as well as weaving fabrics with this technique.  One of my friends alerted me to your guild and the fact that you were exploring this as well in your third season, which prompted me to join up.  I am thoroughly enjoying all the episodes.  We can always learn new things!  But…when I hear “cramming and denting” I fear that weavers everywhere are now going to call it that.  It really is “cramming and spacing”.  In fact, yesterday I read in a 1953 publication, <span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>Four Harness Huck</span> by Evelyn Neher, the term ‘Reed Pattern’ Huck, where Ms. Neher describes “the plan by which this threaded draft is put through the reed…giving more pattern to the fabric.”    My understanding is that <span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>every thread that goes through the reed is dented</span>.  Is there any way you can clear this up?

Love, love, love your episodes and am having fun listening every day to try to catch up!

 

[Sandra]

You are correct, Nancy – every thread is dented going through the reed.  This is just the name that some people use to describe the spacing of this structure through the reed.  Isn’t weaving fun – terminology develops differently throughout the world – even in weaving!

[Elisabeth Schelp]

I just moved, so pardon the evidence of that in the background.  I was nervous about this when I wove it, because sat at the loom with no plan for the order in which I would place colors in the weft.  I tried to allow myself to play- I hoped for something a little artsy and this was the result.  As a happy bonus, it goes just perfectly with the paint on the trim in my new dining room!   Now I think I might need some napkins to go with it.  🙂

[Sandra]

Beautiful, Elizabeth!

[Nina Kennedy]

Lovely!

[Elisabeth Schelp]

Thank you, Nina!

[Elisabeth Schelp]

And the napkins to go with my table runner!  I feel happy when I make things!!

[Author]

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